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Posted by Anitah on Monday, December 16, 2002 at 23:33:37 :
In Reply to: for the sake of..everything..attn spratley, joe.. posted by Indira on Monday, December 16, 2002 at 21:48:19 :
As someone who spent a year of my life struggling against the massive spam and trolling on your old board, I feel I have some basis to speak on this matter you raised.
I think perhaps you and I have a different understanding of anarchy. Anarchy is not lawlessness, it is the freedom to excersize the laws rooted in nature, inctinct, and common sense without infringement by a higher power or government.
Let me draw an analogy with you and this board. Suppose you are God and you create a little spot of beach by the ocean for people to frolic and play freely. You establish that they can do anything they please. They can sunbathe, play frisbee, surf, swim, make a bonfire, make love, anything they wish. Everyone is happy. Then comes in a guy who decides that these "children" are wasting their time playing, they should be doing some serious study or philosophy, and so he pulls his pants down and shits to disrupt their play. He continues to do this, spreading his fecal matter all around this spot of beach. The people are upset, they hate the stench, they get angry. Then comes in God who says "Now, now children, you shouldn't be angry, you shouldn't object. You are all free and this is anarchy. If he wants to crap all over the beach he's free to do so."
What is wrong with this picture of anarchy and freedom? I'll tell you what. Freedom has been hijacked by one person who does not respect the freedom of others. You cannot have freedom in a society where one bully steals everyone elses freedom, and where you inhibit others their right to defend themselves from invasion in however way they see fit.
Here's another example of how I see anarchy. This one from nature. My ex-boyfriend had a dog who gave birth to seven puppies. One of them wouldn't let the others drink milk. He wanted it all for himself. As he got fatter, the others got thinner. I worried about this but my bf said "Let nature take its course." And nature did. When we came home from a movie one night we found the fat puppy dead. The mother had flung him against the wall, breaking his neck. This reaction is true for most animal species. Nature does not tolerate a bully, for if it did, the species could not survive.
The patterns of your recent board are repeating themselves once again on this one, and the result will be the same. A board full of spam, insults, and flame wars with less and less bright people participating because they get turned off by it, and new visitors backing out the door as soon as they see the board is full of crap, is useless to everyone. There was no reason why you should have let someone spam the board with 60 threads. That's an infringement on your freedom and everyone elses. I was there, I saw it, and you could have stopped it, but your idea of anarchy is let everyone do as they please, even if it denies others their right to do and speak as they please. In that sense you are not really letting everyone do as they please, as their instinct and nature would dictate, and you are not acting on nature either, but on a perception you have of anarchy that I believe is false. You, as a human being, have a right to protect the integrity of your work, and believe me, as a developer myself I know how grueling hard the work is, with no pay. If you want freedom on this board, you have to protect it for the good of all. That's the boundary to freedom. Where freedom itself is threatened, a reponse has to be inititiated.
A state of anarchy has to be established and protected -- freedom for all. As soon as one person inveys against the freedom of others he forfeits his own freedom. The other option is just for him to have his way, trample everyone's posts with insults, and for everyone to get sucked into fighting him off, but don't expect people to either just ignore it or take it. Nobody can tolerate having shit thrown at them, and shouldn't be expected to do so. That is an affrontery to their freedom.
If you look closely at each response to Joe, nature is taking its course on this board, or trying to within the boundaries you yourself have set. People are objecting to Joe's intrusive, anti-social behavior in order to protect their freedom and those of others. But you are not participating in that process, you are merely allowing the bully to take over, while people are basically helpless to do anything about it but bitch.
So let them bitch then.
This is an environment, and anarchy can only thrive in an environment where ALL freedoms are protected, except those whose actions will deny ALL freedom to everyone.
Any society that tolerates the bully in their midst and turns a blind eye to it is destined to end up in irrelevancy. That's true of this board, it's true of many on the Internet. But people have gotten wise to it. They've drawn the boundary. No abuse, no spam, not personal attacks or harassment. Period. Basic boundaries of freedom have to be set to ensure everybody's freedom remains viable.
: I've been following this joe vs spratley thing for some time. My first thought, was to address spratley in an email, and joe on the board, but both of you have decided to make your opinions on each other public, so this post had to be public too not to contradict your will.
: This is my description of your attitude, and how I feel about it as an outsider:
: most people here don't care about joe. Not because he's mistaken, or because what he says is complete nonsense, but due to his agressive behavior, that most people find disgusting, and anti social. probably, what's wrong about most people's reaction, is that because they don't like joe's attitude, they refuse to see any possibility of truth in what he's saying. I'm no one to judge both reactions, after all, we're free to emotionally react to something, and alogically respond to it.
: on the other hand, spratley decided to chase after him, to see if he can dismantle joe's attitude into some ice melting happy end. I'm almost sure, that won't happen.
: It doesn't necessarily HAVE to happen.
: as I said before, we're all free to say and do whatever we please, and to expect from people whatever we feel it's good/correct/whatever, and do something to get it.
: what I completely dislike, is the result.
: I call this result, irrelevance.
: it happens every time, on a very clear secuence:
: 1.someone posts
: 2.someone answers
: 3.joe answers something like "idiot"
: 4.spratley responds to joe's posts with "no, he's not an idiot, you are the idiot here"
: 5.joe answers back with "double idiot"
: 6.and we all move on to another post, with the same development.
: everything the first poster said, good or bad, becomes irrelevant, not because of the content, but because it turned to be a reason for two people who won't get along together, to use it as a battle field where they can express their frustrations.
: both of you could have started a thread, with
: 2. Re:idiot
: 3.four times idiot
: 4.ten times idiot
: 5.ad infinitum
: as a healthier alternative to using someone's posts to make the show.
: it would have also been a sick thing to do, but at least, it would have shown a little respect for other people's posts.
: that doesn't mean everybody's posts are great, right, interesting, etc.
: it means that this has always been a FREE place, done for FREE without RULES, or LICENSE AGREEMENT, done to give people a place where they can speak freely, and meet other people who also speek freely, about, as it used to be at the beginning, philosophy.
: Some years ago, I saw someone posting 60 lines subjects.
: I once decided to read one of those, and found out that he was complaining that people here were not serious enough.
: he was even defending me from those people, etc. etc.
: his subjects made the board weight 300K in four minutes. did he made his point?
: of course he didn't-
: did everybody else got pissed of?
: yes, they also felt good about not being so damn wrong..were they right?
: some of them were, some of them were using this place to piss people off, and as an entertaining space where one could swear for free.
: well, fuck off.
: joe, I'm sorry you don't feel right about this place. I know many posts are useless, many of them are stupid, many of them are not serious.
: I know this, and I can assure you, it takes a lot of time and effort to make a place what you expect it to be, and it doesn't always turn right.
: I also apologize for my english myself, as I have done about..20.000 times before.
: But I think there are other ways to address people, and also, you have to give something back in exchange for your insults. a good reasoning would be a start. don't take this as an offensive attack, because it's not intended to be so. I only think that destruction ain't always necessary, and when you destroy, you have to be strong enough to support yourself, and not take a step aside, as I've seen you in some of your posts.
: If you think something said is useless, you can just avoid it, and move on. is it about being correct? no, I would not ask someone to be something I'm not. It's more about being coherent with what you're saying and proposing in every post of yours.
: I don't doubt your happiness, because I don¿t really care about it.
: whether you're happy or not, it ain't my bussiness, and doesn't give or take from you credibility or accuracy.
: spratley, on the other hand, I believe your efforts are vain. joe, or some other people we've seen doing this thing, won't change their behavior, or give you any explanation about it. first of all, you cannot ask anyone to act the way you want them to act, second, you cannot ask anyone to explain their motivations to you.
: but besides this humble judgment, what I disagree with, is the need that you show to chase people like joe, or in other board d. to get some positive result. this leads, always, to mutual agression and resentment.
: but worse than that, it leads to a lot of people wasting time and connection time, following something that in the end, drives them away from the place.
: You're are also driving towards irrelevance, other people's posts, followin joe's mind into a disgusting and useless rant of nonsenses.
: I don't blame you for joe's agression.
: but you're responsible for making his agressions longer and tiring, to the point of ten vicious circle posts in which you ask why, and he says stupid, why, supid, why, stupid.
: I do respect your effort to keep people like this away from places like here, or others, but I think it's pretty obvious that we are all fed up of this chains of bullshit, where one is looking for a reason of a behavior that MIGHT have a starting point and a cause, but that we will never know about, or it is too private and personal to be said here, or maybe it's not what we all care about.
: I don'¿t care about joe's happiness or bitter life, and I would bet on this being a game to see who bites and who doesn't.
: I don't like agressions, for free, and to everyone, but answering those agressions, no matter how much effort you take, it a usesess waste of time and bandwidth.
: so please, there are good and bad posts, and there is the chance to write and speak and be heard, and respected.
: some years ago, when I was young, internet did not exist, and that possibility was not at hand for anyone. so, now, that there are millions of places where people will kindly read your stuff, the fact that there is ONE or TWO people who might kick your ass because of what you say, talks more about freedom and accesibility, than about profound social wounds that might never get healed. it's more like, you write here, and you cannot pretend to be treated with respect all the time.
: else, I would have to moderate, or have someone moderate this place, and I'm totally against any sort of control on posts and people's sayings.
: my sever is outside of your country's borders, outside of USA regulations, and it is almost anarchy.
: so please, part of anarchy, is violence, and part is indifference.
: both of you.
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