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The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.Camus
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Posted by I/ on Thursday, December 05, 2002 at 16:18:11 :

In Reply to: Re: what I read from what you say posted by Spratley on Thursday, December 05, 2002 at 13:17:52 :

me reading btween your lines?

I will change the course of your speech, so I can clarify my ideas better.

spratley: "You say women were oppressed because they weren't allowed to think. I say that you can't stop a person from thinking. ...I have to beleive that their thoughts simply didn't matter in the public sphere because..."

forget the middle ages. make a trip to argentina, buenos aires, and get 3km away from downtown. not even that, 400mts from the congress, and you would inmediately understand what I am talking about. the vast majority in latin america, men and women are ignorant, I say this word without any sort of despise or personal claim of enlightment. they are ignorant, as ignorant as to think they have to have ten children because it is ok to keep their male that way, that cocaine with shattered glass is cool and necessary, that everything can be cured with witches and magicians, that you don't work unless someone hires you, they cannot read, they barely finished second grade at primary school, because they had their milk cup everyday, and they sell herbs on the street for fifty cents of pesos, that is about 0.13 US, start with prostitution at the age of 12 or younger, and the boys sell drugs since they are 13. many of them have already killed someone by the time they're 15, and girls already give birth to their second child when they are 14 or 15.
we have, as well as bolivia, paraguay, brazil, colombia, peru, venezuela, chile, etc, etc a majority of poverty, misery, and crime. 70 percent of our children population lives below misery levels, that is, with less than a peso a day, that is, with about 0.20US a day, to eat, study, get health, and play. me myself, I speak about 11 languages, and can do quite a lot of stuff and I earn about 70US a month, to do everything I need, that includes food, health, internet, books, and the rest. but my childhood was way beyond the misery level. I had toys, and books, I travelled, I studied, I had health, food, tv, video games, and the rest. I was helped to think, and was taught by my parents, and teachers, I was taken care of, I am white, and do not have indians or black traces, both my parents finished university, and I spent my teenage life reading and going out like a normal kid, I was not into prostitution, and drugs, and was kept away, the same that my friends were, from people like the ones I was talking about, cause they were considered harmful and disgraceful.
but those other did exist, and they are our majority, they do rule, and nowadays most of the political decitions are related to their "wealth" and their social situation.
It is not about being able to think, we all have brains, it is about the grounds you have been placed, your starting point, how much you have exerciced your head, how many things you have done and have been done for you in order to make your intellect grow.
Imagine a society where, instead of thinking about women as housewives, most women are maid, working for 1.5 US the hour, in the luckiest cases, and doing some other darker jobs during the rest of the day, to survive.
Imagine a society where most men are construction workers, and most women are maids. they have almost no knowledge, they can add and write down milk and bread to go to the supermarket, and they buy their food at the same place I buy meat for my dog.
Imagine a society where kids are on their own, with no rules, no background, they eat from the garbage, and their learning is about stealing, shooting, and getting stoned. and to finish the painting, insert there a ton of chauvinism, with a civil code that still consider women as an article, and with only a couple of laws to protect them from agression.
Now, why don't you name there the countless possibilities of thought and decision making a woman has to survive here?
I know of societies that have a higher degree of evolution, where men and women are alike, both work, both earn their fair income, both study at university, both have the same opportunities, but if you put all the globe together, what is the percentage of women/societies living under those conditions?
Is there anyone to blame? yes, there is. there have been a lot of prefab governments, who have done everything to keep the population like this. for what?
do u think that we need to have the marines in the triple border here, doing..what?
do you think that I like watching the way our territory is being literally sold to foreigner business and governments, and that someone can decide that we will hold a nuclear garbage because we owe money, or because no one here stops them? do you think that the 50 percent of our population living in poverty cares? cares about what, they don't even know what's going on!
that all that we've lost in the last 50 years, is buried in the sea, or maybe went somewhere else? No way I can think that social movements, and social activies are just a matter of chance. example: 1978 we had the militar dictatorship that killed about 30000 people, destroyed the economy, asked for money to the international organisms, and was actually HANDLED the money, when it was widely known that they were violating argentinian constitution, commiting every kind of crime, and the money was not to be used to do anything but their pockets. there was the football world cup. we were selected to hold it, and the money went straight to build stadiums and that sort of useless shit. the world cup was used to display government propaganda, stickers, and to avoid the united nations and the human rights organizations to inspect the country. we had to win the cup. we played against peru. one of peru players was argentininan. he let our team make 6 goals, and we won.
do u think that was chance? no, no, it wasn't. it wasn't chance that let a government like that take place in a country like this, openly supported by USA, the same as in chile with pinochet, to play the cold war outside of US borders, with US citizens safe from the murders, the social disorder, and the economic disaster. US govmnt knw what was going on, here, and in every other country in latin america, and they supported it. they also supported the war we held against the british (LMAO) they supported and said they were on our side while they were handling guns to the british gvmnt, and spyware. but that kept a million people in front of the presidency, asking galtieri to go on with the war because it was our territory, our nation. a day before, no one knew where the islands were, and that they theoretically had belonged to us during the 19th century. that kept the gvmnt rulling for months, and the people gave their jewels to support it.
meanwhile, 18 yrs old kids were starving in the south, because the provisions had been stolen or were never sent. to hear the news, we heard radio colonia, from uruguay, that while radios here were saying we were winning, they said we had lost.
all this not to mention the USSR interventions in latin america, that were as harmful as the US ones. not to mention the amount of people who died for a cause that was lost already, and that did not belong to us. for all the youngsters that were tricked into joining the communist party, to get a girl, and a joint, and were send to put a package, or blow off a car, for the sake of it. not to mention the shame that was put into an entire generation, who are now 40-45, who lost their youth, their freedom, who were banned from listening to almost every kind of music, readin, learning..
I could never think that a person who keeps another person under torment and slavery, is unconscious of the suffering and the consequences, why would I think society is just a gamble, and that we have no power just because we have no money, or simple things like that? I live here, and we all do, under the impotence of not being able to change things. everytime we do something, someone comes, and asks for money, political adherence, or whatever. every social work we have done, it has been almost in vain, and it has been betrayed by the government. should I think that's pure coincidence? was everything a coincidence? I am not saying that there is only one power. there are many, and they do fight for supremacy, but they don't gable with it, that's for sure.
if it was convenient for society, to keep women in the dark, and if it's still convenient to keep them like that in places like here, that's not just a coincidence, women do still play a role in educating their children, and if what you have is uneducated women, well, our future generations here are less than promising.
have I lost the subject somewhere?
probably, yes.

going on:

Spratley: "Men have been in control of our culture for all but the last 100 years or so. The current forms of government, the current institutions, the shape of the culture itself was affected mostly by men. Thus, the culture favors "male" values. Thus, women that are highly visible within the culture will tend to exhibit cvalues favored by the culture."

Indira: yes, maybe. I have always longed for some sort of gray scale, with no obvious disctincion between the two. I don't think that our way of thinking is different. what I was saying about feminism, is exactly what you're saying, it is a failure from the start, but it has opened many doors that were closed and forbidden for us.
still every movement that promotes just one side of the story, feminism, comunis, capitalism, etc, are either a failure or a plan. there's a book called CIA and cultural movements during the cold war. Interesting to see the shape the cold war took, and the amount of apparently independent ideas that were prefab. for the sake of ideological transmission.
sad also to find out how many free and independent intellectuals were at hand for both sides to use and reuse them, and how many voices were raised for freedom, when they were actually supporting a closed system.

Spratley: "If you agree that women can think in ways that men cannot, or can have emotions that men cannot, then there is no reason to disagree with me now."

Indira: No, I don't agree :)
I think they are raised to think one way or the other, women are given barbie, boys are given cars, women wear dresses, boys don't, women wear pink, boys blue, the problem is when someone is misplaced. I was given cars and music, and I debated through years and years about what I was. According to society, I was somewhere between the two places. I cut my hair short, and wore strange clothes, what the fuck is that, a man or a woman? what the fuck I was, I didn't know, I don't know sometimes, I don't like women, don't want to be like they are here, don't want to talk like that, or feel like that, I go to places women don't go, and my friends excuse themselves saying Indira is like another man, that's why we take her there. I asked a friend four days ago if that was true, he said no, but again, I don't know. Finding my own "feminine" identity among a bunch of girls wearing nice clothes and having nice husbands, kids, and kitchens, has been a pain in the ass. I have felt as an outsider, not because of any particular idea, but because of the fact that I am female. Did it happen to me only? no, it didn't. every woman struggles against this, if she wants to do something out of her life besides raising kids or being a secretary, or a waitress.
We do have to accomodate to men's ambitions, and have to find our path in the middle of their confusion. I don't know, and I don't think that men and women have different values, they are mostly raised to have them, by both their parents, one male, and one female, most of the times, by school, church, club, society.
we are expected to be overemotional, reactive and mindless, when we speak, when we drive (oh my god the things they say when we fucking drive!) etc. that's a question of culture, not about physiological traits.

Spratley:"I am not talking about something attached to the genitals, but rather simple gender-based trends. Commonality."

Indira: Like what? body size, physical strenght?

Spratley: "Men feel a need to be right, to be obeyed, to get to the bottom of things, to have their solution be final and binding. Women work less linearly ON AVERAGE, less finally, less status-oriented-ly. "

Indira: is that because of the physical differences, or because of the education? hasn't there been a progression in opression, that cooled down in the last centrury but lasted like 3000 years?
was it like that at the beginning?
are the differences physiological or cultural? I think they are cultural. A woman can be as strong as a man, except while she is pregnant, and she is pregnant about twice, three times, four times, in her life, that's not most of the time.

Spratley: "Instead it says, "Men favored qualities in themselves which led to the oppression of women --who didn't favor or possess the qualities necessary to stick up to men."

Indira: I think it says, a group of people did whatever they pleased because they had societal permission to do it, and the other group waited for centuries until it could get out of the situation preserving some dignity.

Spratley: "Why are we disagreeing!? hilosophy not being the most important way out, since it was made and preserved by men." Why did men make it? Because they are predisposed to behave in certain ways --ways reflected in their products."

Indira: We're disagreeing because women have been and are able to do everything a man does if she is given the same, or almost the same opportunities he's been given, and the same social recognition for the same achievements. predisposition is for me out of question. it's about opportunities, and treatment, and scale.
you're saying something like, women have kids in their wombs because they are phyically able to while me do philosophy.
excuse me, but it sounds like that even if it's not what you mean.
there are physical differences, but psychological differences, I don't think so. Also, it is interesting to see that when freud developed his theory, he found a way out of oedipus complex.. FOR MEN!! women, well, hmm.. they just don't get out of it! is that somehow related to ortodox jewish culture, and to some ortodox christian culture, and to some islamic tendence, or what?
is it true??
I don't know..I think it's missing (willingly) the point

Spratley: "Imagine: On a planet there are only men. "

Indira: on this planet there have always been both sexes.

Spratley: "These men build prisons. Because all they know are men, they design the prison to house men. "

Indira: no, they were designed to house men, because women were not free to be criminals.

Sratley: "One day they find a woman who's space ship has crashed on the planet."

Indira: I know you usually have a bad temper, but can I laugh at this one for a second without you geting angry?

Spratley:" They try to reason with her in the only way they know how. But she just doesn't seem to respond to it, she doesn't seem to make sense of it."

Indira: erfan says: why don't women want to argue philosophy with me. I give him some answer, probably not THE answer, but an attempt. erfan says "" nothing, zip, nada.
maybe the attempts of reasoning with her were not real attepmts? maybe she did speak, and no one listened? maybe the ones who were talking were prison guards with a gun and a boot instead of a brain?

Spratley: "Have I made sense? "

Indira: yes, you have. can I get out of prison now? :)

Spratley: "Their predispositions are what they are because of the conditions they grew up in."...."The only reason male produce rules is because somewhere along the line they found themselves in conditions which predisposed them to aggression and dominance. That some of those conditions were already existing cultural norms put down by previous male-types makes no difference"

Indira: I think that is totally wrong. If you go to amsterdam, you can smoke hash on the streets, at a cafe, at home, you can buy it, enjoy it, give it to your friends, etc. If I go to other place, let's say, buenos aires, I cannot smoke on the street, or if I do it, I know I'm breaking the rules, and if I get caught, I'm in trouble. the fact that I decide to break the rules, and sistematically challenge the system to catch me or not, is not a minor trace in me. that we follow or not the rules we have been handled, by previous males and females, is not just a detail, but the core of the matter. wether we have been trained to react, or to obbey, it is there that we can find a way out or build another, thicker wall. we have been taught, we are not by ourselves.

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