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Posted by Anitah on Monday, November 04, 2002 at 05:38:21 :
In Reply to: Re: Well, this is the stupidest pile of crap I've ever read. posted by Lycinus on Monday, November 04, 2002 at 01:34:16 :
What does all this rhetoric matter. The point still stands. Ad hominem attacks are puerile and only reveal a weakness in the argument. We all know that, but it seems Joe doesn't. The reason I point it out is that it needs to be said. I don't need a better reason than that on a discussion board.
Furthermore, throwing out "i could show statistics" and not actually showing those statistics is rather pointless, isn't it. Either state the statistical data or don't mantion it, because I am not inclined to take Joe's word for it. I have statistics of my own (and you can check them on the web) that say the U.S. is not first in a standard of living, but more like 6th or 7th. If the richest country in the world cannot provide the best standard of living for its people then something stinks.
Yes, I do agree that U.S. foreign policy and indeed the policy toward its own people is evil, and I say it as an American, without apology. THe evidence in support of this assertion is overwhelming. I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to bring you up to date on the facts. I suggest you catch up.
: I think you may be mistaken in your apparent assumption that Joe thought he was arguing among intelligent people. You say he needs to “do better than call people stupid to make a convincing argument…” I agree that he needs to do better and I suspect that he could. But he did more that call Hard Truths stupid. In fact he didn’t call anyone stupid (unless you are referring to some other post). He did mention that Hard Truths sounded like a complete idiot (and there I disagree – I don’t think Hard Truths sounded complete).
: Like you, I was impressed with Joe’s sarcasm and ad hominem approach to argument. However while you seem to have been negatively impressed I was somewhat favorably impressed (though not terribly so – more subtlety and perhaps some mercy would improve his style – though I suspect this is not a sample of his best work).
: More importantly, you mentioned that Joe’s post was “utterly lacking in substance.” What about his claim to being able to “pile this post with statistics?” I am familiar with some of the sorts of statistics to which he is likely referring. His point that our citizens (I assume he meant the USA and maybe a few other nations but mostly the USA) are doing well compared to those of other countries as measured along many axes is a good one.
: Why is it that you wish to save Joe from “deluding himself into thinking he is pulling the wool over everybody's eyes?” Is this purely a humanitarian effort on your part for Joe’s sake? That is wonderfully kind of you, especially considering I get the sense that you don’t care much for Joe’s ideas which as you say, fit into a “pattern that is becoming more and more recognizable as decidedly right wing and bigoted.”
: Or maybe there is more to it? Do you actually agree with Hard Truths assertion that the US Federal Government is evil? That our “quality of life is ruined and human dignity raped” by the US government? That “the name "USA" will be synonymous with the greatest evil possible, like the name "Hitler" in our day.”
: If you do believe this what evidence would you accept as casting doubt on these assertions?
: P.S. Sorry if my punctuation is not up to your standards Joe. I'm imperfect and sometimes not even improving.
: : You need to do better than call people stupid to make a convincing argument for your side among intelligent people. Your post is chock full of sarcasm and ad hominems, while utterly lacking in substance. But you are not the only one on the right using these ploys to discount and belittle what other people have to say. It seems that this is a pattern that is becoming more and more recognizable as decidedly right wing and bigoted.
: : I thought you should know that this is what I see, lest you delude yourself into thinking that you are pulling the wool over everybody's eyes.
: : : I assume you'll be voting Republican next Tuesday, to reduce the size and power of the American government.
: : : I could pile this post with statistics regarding how well our "innocent civilians" are doing compared to any other country in the world, but I get the distinct impression you don't really care if you're right or wrong. Sadly, I fear you see yourself as sophisticated for adhering to the predictable, anti-American chic which so many people desperate for attention think distinguishes them from the great unwashed. Best of luck in your life of self-congratulation. The rest of us do actually know quite a bit about how the government, our economy and the international order works, and you sound like a complete idiot.
: : : Joe
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